house of Akbar Ali Khan s/o Shamsuddeen Khan Mughal f/o Muhammad Azeem, Muhammad shaukat, Muhammad Irshaad and Muhammad Taj

Dear salyal, I see that you have removed word mughal salyal from Taaya nakhar's family. May I know what made you do that?

wassalaam
salyal2

Do you know that Taaya Khadim Hussain's 2nd wife maasi Zeenat begam known as jeento was first wife of Muhammad Azeem s/o Akbar Ali Khan?

Bhai Azeem's sister Qaasma begam, bhai Azaad's mother in law was married to Chaacha Safdar Ali Khan. But due to argument between two sides this relationship was ended.

However, Taaya Akbar Ali is married to Taee Khaanam bibi known as Khaano d/o Baaba Sooba khan s/o Madad Khan. My great grandmother Mirza Begum known as maa mirjo was also d/o Baaba Madad Khan.

I hope you do not carry on with your funny adventure to prove we have no relationship with your side of the family.

Brothers do some times end up fighting but kinship does not break.

Taaya Akbar Ali's mother was sister of my grandmother d/o At-har Khan s/o Naasar Din Khan. Not only that but Taaya akbar ali's maternal grandmother was sister of my great grand father thekedar baaqar khan.

I have not had the time to put yet more of the such information here to show you how uninformed you may be regarding the family tree that I know but you perhaps not.

I hope in future you do the same ie put useful information here so that together we could build up a reasonable picture of our past.

wassalaam
salyal2

I agree mr salyal 2 we have relationship but not of blood all peaples of village knows that my family have no link with your family only you are arguing about this .your own family members accept that we are not of same family. I have given you time line 2 months plz give me time line of more 2 months because due to my education i am busy and have no time to gather proves .after reading this you think that i am running away but I had told you my name and my grandfather name you can easily caughted me if i dont respond between 4or5 months if i dont respond you will make my fun as much as possible for you it is kindly request for you that 4 or 5 months plz dont make fun or ask any type of question about my claims this is your kindness and noblity wassalam salyal

Dear salyal please carry on with your education because that comes first and don't worry about this discussion at all. You can drop in to help me out any time you feel like it and of course as and when you have the time.

Good luck with your study and I pray that you complete your education and become a worthy person.

wassalaam alaikum

salyal2

asalam u alikum mr salyal 2 thank you very for accepting my problem my request to you is that for my help plz tell me that faqir mohammad has how many sons and please dont use the names of women either of my family or your because this is the dishonoury of women according to hadith we should not use the names of women in any types of debates plz accept my request wassalam salyal

Dear Salyal, thank you in advance for your cooperation. However, you are bringing in religious angle for discussion and it is better if I help you understand my way of looking at things. You are of the view that our women folk should not be mentioned but in my view women are half of the family. We will not be here if women were not here. Mother is as important as father if not more.

We will not have so many of the Ahadith reports if they were not narrated by women and the narrators were not mentioned in the chain of narration by their names. So to think that Hadith does not allow mentioning of females by names is totally wrong. Any such report that is said to be Hadith is actually an obvious fabrication.

Can you realise that people who wrote any such report also narrated ahadith by muslim women of the time themselves. Why would they do so if what you say is true? Please think about it.

To hide women in a dark corner is tribal mentality not religious. We cannot progress unless all our men and women work on same level. You are getting education so should any of your sisters if you have any and in future if you have any daughters. I would not think of you as an educated person if you believe anything you read in religious texts. Do some thinking son and hopefully you will come to realise what is the right way to go about things.

For you information, people did invent a lot of false hadith and they are categorized as such by the critical examiners of the hadith. There are such collections of such hadith which are called MOSUATE kabeer and sagheer i.e big collections of false hadith and a small collections of false hadith.

I hope you are studying in a respectable institution that is worth the name. Education is supposed to open our minds not shut them. If you wish to study religion read literature by Javade Ahmad Ghamdi like scholars. Do not listen to mullahs like Laal Masjid. They have very little knowledge about real islam. They are only giving oxygen to sectarian violence. They are stopping women from participating any where. I am very much against this kind of female oppression. A child learns from his mother because father is busy working to get food on the table. If mother has no idea what life is about, what is she going to teach to her kids? Kids are people of tomorrow so they need to be prepared well. Men and women are equal before God and deserve equal respect.

So dear salyal I hope you learn things and find out what is right and why it is right and what is wrong and why it is wrong and do what is right. Good is good because it is of benefit to human beings and does no harm to them.

May I know what you are actually studying at the moment?

Please do not take what I say in any wrong sense but as words of a person who is concerned about our future. If our future did not matter there would be no point in struggling for it. So kindly look at thing from an open minded angle.

God bless and salaam alaikum
salyal2

Just adding because your request escaped my attention.

There were two Baabas with name Faqeer Muhammad Khan. One had only one son and the other four sons. The one who had four sons is in you line of the family and the one in my line of the family had only one son.

Baaba Faqeer Muhammad Khan in your line of family is great grand father of your great grand father Paindah Khan.

The one in my line of family is great grand father of my great great grand father's great grand father.

To put it in another way, baaba faqeer muhammad khan on my side was uncle of great great grand father of baaba faqeer muhamamd khan on your line of the family. One lived roughly more than a hundred years before the other.

thank you very much mr salyal 2 ok kudahafiz

mr salyal2 Iam not religous fundamentalist and dont belive on their ideolgy and also dont belive on their policy about women .I have read this hadith in book with its tashree and also hear khutba of malwvi which is not religious fundamentalist and who only give references of acceptible hadith of whom more then 1 peaples were witness or hadiths hassan .islam is the only religion of the world which give full rights of freedom to women but acccording to islam so called freedom of women by westren world is dishonerty of women .islam never stop from education of women but stop from that westren freedom.

sir salyal 2 I agree that woman is half of any family and we must respect her but in a particular way . names of women will not be disscussed in general debates like we are discussing because this is dishonerty of women . you donot compare my point of veiw with tribesmen thinking because I am not agianst the education of women and not in favor of stoping women to paricipate in any matter .but without any reason we should not use their names you can write like daughter of or wife of or mother of for women for their respect if you read this by the brain of western media you say that this is curlity and unjustic with women but if you read this by open mind by heart you will know its advantage.this is very long debate and discussion about rights of women according to islam and time is limited as i have hear in kuthba of kateeb saheb so I ask him to give me reference of that hadith on next friday .finally I say that you do that thing which your heart thinks is right.wassalam salyal

sir last of all plz give me your id so we will debate it better hope you will not mind wassalam salyal

Thank you dear salyal, your reply is very encouraging.

As for freedom and oppression, let me put it this way that in the west many children do not know who their fathers and so get depressed. This is because a child needs love and care of both parents. So I am in way in favour of a system that destroys many in the process.

I am likewise against tribal oppression wherein many have no idea who their mothers are.

So we should not take either of the extreme views if we are looking for a better and worthwhile future.

In the west many women have lost respect because they have been exploited in a wrong way but many women also have little respect the way they are treated in tribal societies. So we need to break away from both systems to some degree in order to learn a better way of doing things in the future.

It is unfortunate that we complain about the same things that we ourselves are guilty of doing. Well it is good thing that at least we are talking about it maybe one day something good will come out of it.

Well let us hope for the better in the future. If our education system improves with time there is some hope for the better tomorrow.

As for using names of women, it has been a common practice in islamic literature. Even the quran mentions mother of Jesus by her name, Mariam. The hadith books are full of female names. So even if you are right about the hadith that it stops from mentioning women with names yet it only contradiction self evident fact so something has to be wrong with that hadith or it may have other interpretations. May be it stops us from mentioning women by name in case of slandering and abuse. That is not what we are doing here. We are talking about who our fathers and mothers or sisters are. So no there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in that context. Well it is good that you brought that point up that bothered you for discusion and hope you have better understanding of it.

I will e mail you my id when you have things ready to send me. I will ask you your email at that time to do so.

Also please do comment on my family tree as to what you have seen in there so far. Do I need any improvement therein or is it good? Has anyone else you have spoken to has this kind of information. If so that will be of great help. Once the work is nearly complete it will let our children know who is who and how many different ways the village is related and also how many other villages we are related to.

I am also very limited on time so if I fail to reply please do not mind.

Take care khuda hafizonasir
salyal2

sir mr salyal 2 your opinion about western socity is right while about names of women you give example of hazrat mariyam in quran there is sura name mariyam.mr these women like hazart mariyam hazarat katiga hazart fatima have upper level then all women their names were used in surats and in hahdith for significant reason we can also use the names of women for significant reason like in id card but women names will not be discussed as general like we are using in this debate because I think that there is no need of women to be mention in this debate. as you indicate the house with name we will automatically understand and knowed about his familymembers youwish you can do it is a request.second you said i tell you about improvement in you work and about family tree I know many mistakes in family tree but my research is not 100% sure as my research complete I will tell you my opinion how we can improve where iam mistaken and where you are mistaken hope you will not mind wassalam salyal

and please for my information can you mention full family tree for mughals living in mohra salyal wassalam salyal

sir salyal2 asalam u alikum according to your family tree faqeer khan in my line is son of izzat baig while faqeer khan in your line is son of saada khan is it true .and also i mention full family tree of mughals living in mohra salyal here

Dear salyal, wa alaikum slaam and thank you for your helpful views.

As I have stated already I too am working on things and it will take quite some time before we have a reasonable view of things in village mohra salyal. I hope though that I have the needed time to see this venture through because life as it is is hectic to say the least. You are perhaps lucky that you are living in the village and therefore all things are in front of you but unfortunately I have been away from the village for atleast a few decades. The information I am sharing with you is that which I left the village with and a couple of snapshots thereafter along that which has been passed down my generations.

The purpose of this information sharing is not to tell you that I am 100% right because humans are prone to human error at least if not the rest but a very large bulk of this information should prove be very reliable. In other words, we are putting the information handed down to us to the test by trying to verify it with ground reality as far as it is humanly possible.

I do not mind at all if you have something equally or more reliable than what I have to help us correct ourselves. In fact I shall be grateful to you for that. The idea of discovering the truth is to accept it as it is, no ifs and buts.

Family history is not only important in sense of where we have come from but also in sense of where we should be going. If any of our children does anything great in future that will raise the family standing as well just as it did when our alleged distant ancestors did great things. It will give our future generations role models to look up to and be something themselves. At the moment we as a village are falling behind and that is very disappointing for me to see. We need to get together and plan for a better future for all of us.

In order to do so petty little troublesome things need to be ignored and wisdom need to be shown and allowed to prevail. My father died with his dream and passed it on to us his children and I am worried all the time whether I can shoulder the huge responsibility.

I want to pass the vision down to our future generations so that we all realise the need for making such a dream reality and do our utmost to bring it into reality. Not all of us think that far ahead and much less even to bring things like this about but it is worth a try. The world is moving very fast and unless we do something to move with time, there would not be anything left to look behind.

This is why we must try our best to help educate each other and bring about a village that is something has som eworth not only in our owns eyes but also in eyes of other people as well.

This calls for big measures for creating economic prosperity for ourselves. This cannot be done by fighting with each other but by working closely together. Finishing off all silly attitudes and mentalities that are obstacle in the way of our progress and prosperity, which is essential for gaining and maintaining our respect in the wider communities of people.

The family tree only shows us that we are all one and the same people regardless we are related only by kin, only by kith or by both and therefore our individual dreams and realities cannot be separate from main dream and reality that we all are a part of.

Finaly please allow me the time and I will try as and when I can to continue this task.

You asked if according our family tree Baaba Fakeer Muhammad on your side is son of Baaba izzat baig mirza, yes he is. Baaba Faqeer Muhammad Khan on my side of the tree is son of Saada Khan s/o Mirza Muhammad Iqbaal Baig s/o Mirza Sultan Baig s/o Mirza Seydan Qulli Khan and so on.

As I said in another post Baaba Faqeer Muhammad Khan on my side lived quite a few generations before Baaba Fakeer Muhamamd Khan on your side of the tree. I will put at least 100 years distance between them or at most 150 years.

There are people in the village who have got their own family trees as far as I know, perhaps more complete than the one I have, so you may be able to consult them for better information. How many generations does your tree detail? Did anyone else other than Taaya Khaadim Hussain write their family tree on your side of the tree. I think Baaba mawlavi Laal Hussain might have done so, so ask bhai Basheer about it. Find out from uncle Saeed Akhtar as well.

In fact take what I have written and ask around if anyone knows what I am talking about. Perhaps this way we will get help of somebody who knows about these things. Let me know what you find out, and we will take it from there.

Take care khuda hafiz
wasalaam
salyal2

mr salyal2 I have my family tree but I want to see your family tree which your elders had written and secondly I want to know that faqir khan in my line is directly greater grand son of faqir khan s/o saada khan or faqir khan s/o saada khan is brother of faqirkhans[s/o izzatbaig] greater grand father wassalam salyal

Dear salyal, the actual family tree that we had in the family from our forefathers, was destroyed through negligence of our household along with some gifts from King Aurangzeb and business transaction papers of my great grandfather.

What I have is the information that I got from my parents and others which I copied in form of writings. It is this information from which I get my family tree. If you must have the earlier proper handwritten version then you are likely to find it with people in the village. The people who might still have earlier version of this family tree could be Taaya abdul Majeed's sons, Baaba Subedar Nazeer Ali, bhai Hassan Akhtar, Taaya Meer Hassan's children or chaacha zulfiqar's children. Why not ask uncle saeed and others? Somebody may have what you are looking for.

Even if you do not find such a family tree version, you will see very little wrong with what I have put up. Some of it you might as well be able to verify from official paper works if you are that much concerned but the most of it is straight forward ground reality as it is.

As I said before, it is hard work to collect information and put it into context so things are going to take some time.

The information I am slowly putting up should be able to help you construct our family tree in due time.

The information I have about Baaba Fakeer Muhammad Khan on your side is as follows; Faqir Muhammad Khan s/o Izzat Baig Mirza s/o Maali Khan s/o Mirza Ghulam Muhammad s/o Mirza Sad hassan khan s/o Mirza Muhammad Iqbaal Baig s/o Mirza Sultan Baig.

The great grandfather of my great grandfather was Fateh Ullah Khan s/o Subhan Khan s/o Hayaat Bakhsh Khan s/o Saada Khan s/o Fakeer Muhammad Khan s/o Saada Khan s/o Mirza Muhammad Iqbal Baig s/o Mirza Sultan baig. Both branches join at Baaba Baala or kaala.

Have you found out any information about these people as to where did they come from, when or why? If you have please share. More information will only help us understand things in better light.

Take care khuda hafiz
Salyal2

mr salyal2 thankyou very much I have old version written by my great grandfather subadar kahadim hussain and which is even longer then your family tree version i had match that family tree version with other family tree versions of my family.i want to see your family tree so I can know that where i am wrong and where you are wrong I had seen many things in your family tree but before full research I dont want to point them wassalam salyal

Dear salyal, if you do not tell me what is in your family tree how would I know whether I am making any mistake or not? So please share the information whatever you have so that things could be looked at more critically to reach a better conclusion about history of our village. I am looking for contribution from everyone so you also have the chance to make your contribution as much as you can.

I see no reason why you should not share the information that you have at hand. The truth of the information depends on the information itself, not on me or you. So please allow people to judge things for themselves just as you see me doing.

Even if we find odd things different there may be good explanation for them but that would not be possible unless you put up the information for me and others to see.

To me it does not matter much whether a family tree is written by latter generations on a piece of paper or not, what is important is that related information or explanation makes sense. If it does not then it is useless, written or not. Similarly if you do not share the information from your side then you cannot blame me for writing wrong things about our village and ourselves, can you?

So please let me know my family line according to your ancestors as well as your own. I never said my family tree included everyone but that it does contain the branching that I told you about. My family tree proves the connection between the two sides.

If you want to keep arguing against it, that is up to you. But my case is solid as a rock that our ancestors whoever they are, are same from Baaba Baala khan onwards.

The two people were never rivals or enemies. They always supported and cooperated with each other.

Let me put it to you as you assumed. Let say me and you are enemies.

1) Do you think I will miss the opportunity to get you?

2) If I take some of your things and you can do nothing then what will stop me from taking the rest of them from you?

When you have thought about these like questions then that should automatically dispel any of your wrong ideas or thoughts about this side of the family.

Petty little things happen in every household, they cannot be taken as basis for looking at things in total negativity.

Just think about it, if I took you as my enemy then my tone and arguments would be totally different. They would be much more forceful and challenging for you. You can see from what I have written so far the command of information that I have and the way I express my self and conduct myself.

So stop worrying about things and see if you can be of any help in what is facing both of us. I will get there at the end but if I have the helping hands that will for sure make my life much easilier.

You should not worry at all whether my tree is wrong or yours, let the tree speak for itself whether it is worth the paper it is written on or not. You put down what you have just like I am putting down what I have. May be something great will come out of our this joint effort.

So take care and khuda hafiz.

salyal2

sir problem is that you dont understand what i write I am doing full research so I DONT WANT to show incomplete research because any incomplete thing have no validty BUT I think you have a instrument for juging any thing right or wrong but I have not so Iam gathering complete information which will prove my claims plz dont debate on my claims till I have no proves for 3 or4 months.plz tell which of my things you have taken plz dont mind any thing is not judge on the basis of passion but on solid facts so plz clear your misunderstanding that iam hiding my information because if i want to hide it then why i am debating or claiming so plz wait for me wassalam salyal

sir according to you baala khan is founder of village and he have two sons according to you one from my side is sadhassan khan f/o gulam mohammad f/o mali khan f/o izzat khan /f/o faqeer khan while his second son saada khan on your side isf/o faqirkhan f/o saada khan f/o subhan khan f/o fattellah khan and till fattah ullah khan his ascestors from saada khan have only one son is it true and this whole family tree is true plz respond wassalam salyal